On this week’s new F2P Cast, we compare current free to play games to WoW, Havek goes off on Mists of Pandaria, we chat about NeverWinter’s newest trailer, and throw in a splash of Everquest Next. With your feedback and Weekly Bombs it’s a show full of opinions galore!

Free-To-Play Cast is the official podcast (and videocast) of MMOBomb.com about free to play multiplayer online games. Free-To-Play Cast takes on the week’s biggest news with plenty of opinion, weekly bombs, community feedback, guests, interviews, laughs thrown in for good measure and much more. Have fun and expect a new episode next week! (every Wed or Thu)

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  1. I think Havok is rt about the monthly update.

    I have a twofer McDoofer for my bombs. I have a A-Bomb for Aeria Games Born To Fire that is just wow why would they even plan on making a closed beta when its highly unbalanced and the hitbox system is complete rubbish.

    sorry to be negative Nacy but my other A-Bomb goes to Creyteck What the heck are they doing. :/ The game has been released in China and Russia already when the game was scheduled to release in in NA several months after chinas release. Now they have the KR version already in CBT at Nexon KR…So does this mean WF is going be Nexon NA game?

  2. Hey for the question this week i don’t think it’s a little too late for planetside 1 to go free to play. Look at EQ and EQ2 they did it like that and i’m pretty sure EQ still has a somewhat decent community. It’s gonna have those people who subbed to the game in addition with a few curious people who never played the previous game.

  3. Just a quick comment about the fast track server in Aion.

    Its a shared channel for all server in Aion NA where you can get extra xp and it is available for players lvl 50 and below but there are certain maps where the channel is not available. Broker house and any kind of trading is not available in in that channel so that money movement does not get affected in all four server. Players who play aion NA goes there to avoid enemy faction attacking them because there is no rift on that server while players who want kill players in enemy territory or attack players in their own territory then they stay in the standard server. Its like turning ON or OFF open world PVP

  4. Howdie F2P Cast. You guys do a great job on your shows and I very much enjoy listening to them.
    I have a theory about the “WoW killer” everyone seems to want or expect. To preface, I don’t disagree with LoL not being a WoW killer, however I don’t necessarily agree with your justifications as such. Yes, LoL and WoW are completely different games. However, if the release of LoL had a significant impact on the subscription base of WoW users, then this justification does not stand. The definition of a “WoW killer” in my mind is a game that pulls the WoW user base in to such an extent that WoW itself becomes a shadow of its former self. I don’t believe LoL accomplished this so it is not a WoW killer. The style of the game itself is irrelevant. Now, as to why there has not ever been a WoW killer. I think the answer to that question is quite simple. The gaming companies are trying to compete with WoW by using WoW as a basis. The term WoW clone is not unfitting to quite a few games. Most games follow a generic mmo format that we’ve seen time and again. For all the “innovation” and additions that have been made in some games, lets face it, it’s still the same game. I think this is most evident in stuff like RaiderZ. The game itself is generic MMO, just with a different combat style. I think to truely kill WoW a game must come out that completely frees itself from that base outline that mmo’s have. To kill WoW, the game must be so unique and different than WoW that comparisons can’t be made. The trick though, is that it has to appeal to WoW players. A very interesting problem imo.

    Random side comment. If John Smedely ends up being right about SWTOR being the last P2P AAA title, I wonder what model Elder Scrolls Online will take?

    • Hi,

      John Smedely can only say that about Bioware or EA game’s.

      Since Elder Scrolls Online is Published and Develpoed Bethesda and Zenimax Online Studios.
      He has nothing to say about what they do.



  5. First time listener. I actually emailed Magicman a while back when I first joined the site and he recommended I come listen to the show. I wont lie, I was a little intimidated by the length of the show being over an hour, but I definitely enjoyed myself. I found myself laughing out loud, which I rarely even do while watching my favorite shows. Now I want to hit some of these subjects.

    Needing a WoW killer? No, it can handle that itself. I can’t count the amount of times I logged onto WoW and did nothing but fly around town or jump in circles while talking to guildies. After you do all the big raids and grinded all the dungeons all that is left is getting the best armor, but what good is that? I want the best armor so that I can fight the biggest boss, not so I can move my way up on wow heroes or some other site that shows progress. WoW will always hold a special part in my heart and I wont say that I didn’t enjoy my run, but that is just it I had my run and I am done.

    For Everquest Next, I want to see what they have to offer. They are talking big and I want to see someone finally follow up on it. I would be willing to try Everquest 2 if the limitations weren’t so unenchanting. I for one don’t like to see classes and races locked. Content being locked is less of a deal to me when diving into a game then my character customization. If I see that I can be a Goblin Monk then I want to be that. You slap a label that prevents me from doing so I am going to turn away.

    Now NeverWinter. I have played DDO a bit, and as much as I did play I loved it, however I wish it wasn’t so limiting on creation. NeverWinter looks promising. I don’t recall who said it, but I too am a little eerie about the whole “Perfect World Entertainment” logo being slapped on it. All that aside, it looks like a damn good game. I am huge on the whole fantasy genre, who doesn’t want to kill dragons and conjure magic while in the safety of your own home in boxer shorts eating a burrito? I for one am all for it.

    Free to play models………. sigh…… where do I start? Okay lets look at SWTOR. I for one love me some Star Wars, and the idea of making my own character in the Star Wars world is amazing. Would I pay for it? No. I doubt I will ever go out and pay for another MMO. Now they have this piece of shit idea they call a “free to play” model. More like “Free to wish”. We might as well make birthday cakes, put them on a table, and allow people to eat the type of frosting we put on said cakes. Free to play my ass. If I were to convert a pay to play model to a free to play model I would do exactly that. Too many companies just make a watered down version of the game in hopes that some day the people that join the game will subscribe. If you offer 10 races and 10 classes for creation then make them all available. If you offer 40+ dungeons and 10+ raids make them free to play. Now if you offer special mounts, hairstyles, cosmetic clothing and a housing system make that shit cost money. People like that stuff. WoW is a sub based game and they still make money off of pets and mounts. If you are going to have any kind of subscription make it a luxury and not a necessity. $10 a month and you get ___ points to spend in the shop and access to Beta Servers. Possibly even sub based accounts have access to some form of an alternate play area with content that doesn’t transfer over to the original play area. More like fun optional things that people pay for. Or even just add things where people can pay to make leveling faster. I could care less if someone got to level cap before me, I more or less care if that person is better than me at level cap because he has more money.

    Anyways I am ranting and I am sure your tired of reading all this…. however I do have a question. I want to know, what can I do to possibly help MMoBomb?? I do intend, after I get settled in life and have a better computer and better equipment, I would love to do some reviews and/or just make some videos about my take on the MMO industry and how I view the games myself. All in all, what can I do right now to help you guys out? I would love to put back into the community for all you guys do for us viewers/listeners. 😀

    well, keep up the good work guys and I will see you on the servers. (haha Magicman, your awesome)

  6. I would like to give a Da bomb for Requiem memento mori, I am sick and tired of all the cutesy mmo’s out their. I don’t want to kill fluffy jelly bunnies I want to kill scary goblins and zombies. The more blood shed is the more monsters dead.

  7. No, its not too late for Planetside 1 to go F2P IMO because I finally got me a damn Planetside 2 beta key and its too choppy becuase of my damn processor is too dated 🙁 lol Havoc, nobody wants to follow you on twitter of Facebook your too mean haha jk

  8. this is what i have to say..and all im going to say about EQ@ and sony…… fk you guys..seriously. why did you have to steal the merch idea from swtor…anyone try to get a party going lately?? and forget getting a p2p player to team up with a f2p player. you guys essensially took the best mmorpg since doac and wrecked it…cant even finish my heritage quest…and tho i wasnt a sub p2p player i did buy a bit of this and that every once in awhile. besides my unpaid advertising of the game..you guys messed up :0P…i may play again at some point..but havent played or bragged about the game since the change…death to all mercs!!!!

    • also if you want to make a better game try including some rvr type wars(daoc) more puzzles(or mini games) and heres a new idea that no one ever uses…cutscenes and real voice overs!!! dont have to spend millions getting famous actors..get the fkn design team in on it..pull some people off the street…aspiring actors are always looking to get in on something that will get their name out there..sure 100 a day would cover it..its more immersive and makes you feel more a part of the game..if you were gonna steal ideas from swtor it shoulda been that…i really dont know why i didnt get into game design..id probably be rich by now *smh*

  9. Myself personally, if I don’t got to buy the box, I will certainly at least play through SWTOR with atleast one character for the story. We’ll see what happens afterwards lol. I’m not really a big fan of the restrictions either, but what do you really honestly expect? lol.

    I’d like to give an A-Bomb to Silent Hill Revelations 3D lol. Yes to a movie. I went and saw it today… and it was good.. but it wasn’t as good as the first. At least it didn’t have the same affect on me the first movie had. Probably because its hard to top barbed wire rape(no I’m not a republican lol). If you don’t have a 3D TV at home or anything and you really feel you want to see this in theaters, go ahead. But if you do, I don’t suggest spending the 15 dollars like I did(yeah seriously) to go see it. Wait til you can get on Netflix or whatever you use lol.

    I’d also like to give Raiderz both a DaBomb and an A-Bomb. DaBomb because I’m really enjoying playing my Cleric and the experience during OBT has been very good so far. The A-Bomb because there NO IGNORE LIST. Being in town is so annoying because you got gold spammers you can’t block, or at least I haven’t been able to yet. Shame on them for not adding it.

    Oh, and I played a little Hawken earlier for a little bit… I honestly dunno how I feel about it. It just feels like a FPS in a mech. Maybe I just need to play it a little longer. It just doesn’t give me that spine tingle I get when I play Mechwarrior Online since it feels a little more authentic as a mech game… Maybe I’m just a little biased since I’m a long time Mechwarrior fan. I’m trying lol.

    Anyways, great show again. Will tune in again next week.

    • Not saying it shouldn’t be easier or more obvious, but you can type /block, which you could have easily asked about in zone chat lol. But they DO need to add reporting (assuming it’d do anything to get rid of bots)

      • Lmao. yeah funny thing I saw they had stickied a thread on it on the forums like the day after I wrote that so that made me quite happy. i didn’t know there was a block command and I’m sure alot of other people didn’t know either lol. But yeah, the whole spam ordeal is really ridiculous right now.

  10. Another Great Show Sir !

    To Selfius… Dang Dude, Battle Pet !

    While I expected that I would need to run out to Elwynn Forest to find wild critters to fight, I didn’t even need to go that far. As I flew over Stormwind, green paw icons began appearing on my minimap — there were Stormwind Rats to battle right within the city.

    There is your Rat quest…. 😀

    As for the Game A or B

    I would play A , Reason :

    Like most F2P game’s since they don’t have alot of update’s i get bored and move on. The consitent update would keep my attention more. Guildmate’s always become my community.



  11. I guess most of people go with the Game B , its the community that gets people to play more together than the game itself (imo) , For example i used to play WoW with my longtime friends just to enjoy the group work.

    Great show guys , keep it up

  12. Game A vs Game B….well personally I already have Game D (Selfius or Havek took Game C), but out of those two, I’d say Game B slightly edges out Game A…if the community has gone to crap, resulting in you solo playing most of the time, you might as well play a single player game. That being said, I’d still probably play Game A as well.

    With Planetside 1 going f2p, I believe its a little too late…honestly, unless the original is far different from its sequel, the first title should always go f2p first.

  13. gotta give me A-BOMB to you know it those sweet ass GUNNAR glass. did not do giveaway i bought some. there kick ass they look cool and now i can do and all nighter playing hawken closed beta. also gonna give a DA-BOMB to ever mmorpg that does not have some sort of char customization.

  14. Oh, I almost forgot to answer the question that was asked.

    Choose only A or B:
    A. Play a AAA game that gets new content once a month and has a bad community.
    B. Play an “average” game that gets new content every 2-4 months and has a good community.

    Although my heart would go to B, my choice would be A, not necessarily because I feel it’s a better choice, but because I really don’t have as much time anymore to play games (work, gf, etc.).

    I associate “community” with guilds because that’s the main method of communicating on a regular basis and in a meaningful way.

    A while back, I was playing the PS3’s version of DCUO. I joined a League (DCUO’s equivalent to a guild), did a lot of stuff with my leaguers such as repeatable quests and participating in as many raids as I could, and sometimes hanging out with a few of them and just talk. It was a great League. It was great community. I think that’s how a community should be.

    Unfortunately, I no longer have the free time for that. My character was at the point where I needed to participate in the higher tiers of raids in order to get the better gear I needed to improve, and those raids can be quite frustrating and time consuming. That means having to be available for the raid schedule.

    My point is that a person choosing B would be one who has the time to interact with the community.

    I haven’t been playing any MMO recently, but hypothetically, I’m choosing A because I don’t have the time to dedicate to MMOs anymore. If I have the time to play any MMO (and that’s a really big IF), I’d want to go in, experience what I can with what little time I have, and get out. Community would be irrelevant to me in that regard.

    Though I’m not currently gaming hardcore like the rest of you guys, I still consider myself a gamer since that was my main hobby for most of my life.

    I usually watch F2P Cast while having lunch (usually on a day off). You guys are my main method of being up-to-date with anything gaming-related (I didn’t know about that fapping incident until Havek mentioned it), so keep up the good work!

    • GREAT POINT! The ability to invest time plays a HUGE role in which game option you would choose! Thanks for chiming in with a different viewpoint!

  15. Hey MMOBomb Squad, first time posting, long time listener. What compelled me to do my first post here is your WoW talk at the end of the WoW killer and what not. Also remembering how one of you said “WoW is killing itself” i completely agree with this statement, i was expecting MOP to be a good X-pack for WoW and a good change up, but once i hit 90, only in 2 and a half days of MOP’s launch, i progressed outward and saw more of the MOP content, slowly realizing that MOP has many many concepts taken from the old BC x-pack (Wows first x-pack). Then saddened by what i had came to see and that Blizzard is still just rehashing content. And hence i unsubbed and just working out my last month of game time with WoW, MOP had me quit faster then Cata which i did not see coming. (Im have been playing WoW on and off since Original WoW). But now with games like Guild Wars 2 out showing us we dont really need to pay a monthly sub to play some generic Theme park MMO, its nice to have that, so if i want a tab target, gear based game, i will play GW2 which i do have, and be content that i can put my 15 dollars toward a game thats worth the it and is acutally not run of the mill, like Darkfall.

    So i guess heres my first Bomb ever, This is a Half and Half bomb, not a full F2P bomb either but its at least a MMO gaming Bomb unlike some bombs left by the MMOBomb Squad xD

    A-Bomb to WoW for Lack of Innovation and Rehashing old concepts
    Da-Bomb to Guild Wars 2 for a Non-Sub based game that gives us our Theme Park needs for a one time Buy.

  16. Welcome back, Havek! I was surprised that your bomb wasn’t an A-Bomb and it was actually gaming-related in some form. Glad to hear your opinions in an episode regardless.

    You brought some very good points concerning why you keep playing WoW despite being aware of all its problems. This reminds me of my philosophy concerning the subscription-based model which I’ll try to outline as follows.

    The Trap: Why subscription-based model is bad for the player:

    1. _Giving your money away_ You are paying monthly for something that you don’t absolutely need. It’s like you’re paying rent, utility bills, or anything else that has a recurring charge. We pay these bills because we have to, not because we want to. Why would anyone choose to pay a bill that we don’t have to?

    2. _Addiction_ When you pay your subscription monthly, you feel the obligation to play to get your money’s worth. This is one form of addiction that keeps you playing and sucks all your time into the game. It also keeps you focused on the game so much that you think about this particular game all the time. Now, you can decide to take breaks, but in doing so, you fall behind compared to the rest of the regular players AND you are not getting your money’s worth because no matter what, you’re paying the same monthly fee. One day, you may suddenly realize that this is a bad addiction and decide to quit, but… (see the next point)

    3. _Bad Investment_ You’ve already invested too much of your money, time, and effort into this game. This is equivalent to what Selfius said: a bad marriage. Quit now and you lose everything. All it takes is to pay $15/month to keep everything you’ve invested and the opportunity to keep up with all your in-game peers regardless of whether you like the game anymore and whether or not you agree with the publisher’s/developer’s business decisions. Most people will decide it’s just easier to pay the $15/month and not have to worry about the consequences of losing their “investment” or fall behind, but in doing so, they’re only turning a bad investment into a worse one and being stuck in an endless cycle: see my points # 1, 2, 3, then 1, 2, 3, etc.

    So why does such a business model exist? It must bring some kind of benefit to someone, otherwise no one would implement it, right? Yes. It benefits someone. It benefits the publishers/developers in the following ways:

    1. Your money contributes to their constant profit.
    2. Your addiction contributes to their player-base.
    3. Your bad investment contributes to their job security.

    In short, the a subscription-based model is LOSE/LOSE/LOSE for the player and WIN/WIN/WIN for the publisher/developer.

    The subscription-based model still exists because the people who got into it have gotten used to it and have budgeted for it. It has become what’s known as their “comfort zone”. On may occasions, certain sub-based games have gotten so bad that a large number of players would leave these games. However, their budget of $15/month or more is still there and now they have a big amount of time that needs to be filled by another game. So they look for another sub-based game to fill the void. They already have the budget for it. However, all that means is that they left the cycle in one game and joined the cycle in another game.

    Now, to be fair, I’m sure there are certain games out there that offer a value that players feel is worth at least the $15/month (or whatever the fee is) they are paying. In such cases, that’s a good thing because it brings something good to the player. Unfortunately, I can’t name any because I never wanted to be caught in the trap (I spent my money on console games I liked instead).

    None of what I’ve written above is new knowledge, but it definitely shows how one-sided the subscription-based system can be towards the publishers/developers.

    Some players who side on the subscription-based system like to say the following: “It’s only $15/month. I can afford it. I spend so much time in this game that it’s worth it.”

    I would have to say that although everything said above is true to that player, they don’t explain how his choice of paying a subscription affects the overall MMO industry and even the economy.

    My point is that as consumers, the only power we have is how we spend our money. We can keep telling big companies that their products suck, but if we keep buying their products anyway, they’ll keep making the bad products. If we stop giving them money, then they’ll have to start making products that we like so that they can actually EARN our money, not get it through a subscription-based model that guarantees their cashflow.

    Therefore, as consumers, it is our responsibility to decide where our money should go. This means we should stop supporting bad business decisions even if it only costs a few coffees a month. Put that coffee money into a better game and make the better game grow!

    • I see you point’s but to someone such as myself.

      1.Your money contributes to their constant profit.
      Not to me.
      My money goes to awsome customer support, Ever got hacked in WoW? I have and had all my gear and account back within 30 minute’s. Good luck with that on any B2P or F2P game.. That’s what your paying for!

      2.Your addiction contributes to their player-base.
      Again not to me.

      This statement only applys to an indavidual not everyone that play’s Any Game.
      Just as much addiction in F2P where players spend More than that 15$ a month.
      Look up korean gamer addiction , Ton’s and all from F2P game’s ! A sub don’t make you addicted!

      3.Your bad investment contributes to their job security.
      Again nope.
      If thier game was total BS it would be just like Aion,Conan,D&D,Lotro… The Great sub’s don’t die that quickly.

      Most players that hate sub’s ..In all my days of gaming and more so since following this site.
      The majority just can’t afford it or now expect Everything to be free.

      I would pay the 15$ a month on any decent game..Why?
      The P2W factor is Gone.. That’s the feeling i like knowing when i pay for WoW !

      I am a Gamer a Gamer4Life…15$ in my life is pocket change…


      • Hey, Inflictious! Always fun to read your comments.

        >1.Your money contributes to their constant profit.
        >Not to me.
        >My money goes to awsome customer support, Ever got hacked in WoW? I have and had all my gear and account back within 30 minute’s. Good luck with that on any B2P or F2P game.. That’s what your paying for!

        Yes, that’s a good point. I’m sure that if they don’t provide good customer support, they’d lose a lot of customers. I never got any account hacked in anything. I tried WoW, but couldn’t get into it at all. I wouldn’t even play it even if it’s F2P.

        But the purpose of my write-up wasn’t to compare sub-based to other models. It’s also not specifically targetting WoW either. Rather, it’s to show how this business model can be used and abused for the publisher’s/developers’ benefit only. If you are happy with WoW and you believe $15/month is worth it, then all the power to you. However, if you believe it’s going downhill, you’re not enjoying it that much anymore, and Blizzard’s business decisions are frustrating you, then you’ll understand how this business model is not helping in improving the game.

        It doesn’t matter what kind of customer support you are getting, you are still paying $15/month for a game. It’s a game, not rent, car payments, insurance, utility bills, etc. The idea of paying for something on a recurring basis for something that is not a necessity in life is not something that should be encouraged and accepted as “normal”.

        Players should have a certain level of tolerance to business decisions for gaming, which means there should be a maximum level of BS. that they’re willing to take before they say “That’s enough!” I’ll use another example: DLCs. You buy a game, then later, there are more that you’ll need to buy to “further” the experience. For certain games, the DLCs do not contain anything important to the main story or the overall experience of the main game itself. Most gamers are ok with that. However, there are some games (biggest example can think of is Final Fantasy XIII-2) where you pay full price for the game, but when you finish the game, you didn’t finish it… What? It’s not finished? What happened? Oh! Gotta wait for a DLC and pay for it to finish it! BS!

        >2.Your addiction contributes to their player-base.
        >Again not to me.

        >This statement only applys to an indavidual not everyone that play’s Any Game.
        >Just as much addiction in F2P where players spend More than that 15$ a month.
        >Look up korean gamer addiction , Ton’s and all from F2P game’s ! A sub don’t make you addicted!

        You are correct, people can get addicted to F2P games also. Again, my write-up was never intended to compare P2P and F2P business models. My point is that the addiction potential is already part of the sub-based model itself right from the get-go. Think of it as either a built-in feature or a side-effect of the model. I mentioned in my first point #2 that just by paying, you can feel the obligation to play to make the most of it. It’s a human/psychological thing that happens. For example, if you buy a Porsche or some other awesome/amazing car, wouldn’t you want to be seen driving it? (Yes, there are collectors who buy it but never drive it in order to keep it in mint condition, but it’s an even worse problem if a player pays a sub and never plays the game…)

        Since you were comparing it to F2P, I’ll use the comparison to clarify it even further. In F2P, you have a choice to pay any money for anything in the game as you see fit. If you want to spend way more than $15/month to continue your addiction, that is your own choice and that’s how the publishers/devs make their money from you. That’s your own choice though. In P2P, it doesn’t matter what amount of money you want to pay, you still have to pay $15/month even if you believe it should be less or nothing. If you are addicted, you must pay it, but in F2P, even if you are addicted, there’s no obligation to pay anything. You can just keep playing.

        You are also correct in saying that the statement only applies on an individual-basis. Thank you for correcting me and I’ll clarify it further. Not all players who pay a sub are addicted. Also, even some sub players who are addicted may pay it anyway even if they weren’t addicted (in a hypothetical/alternate universe sort of way).

        Whatever the case may be, if the addiction occurs, it guarantees the publisher/devs $15/month for as long as the addiction continues and for as long as that player has the money to pay for it. My understanding of addiction is that it usually continues for a VERY long time and it’s hard to break. By being in the game on a regular basis due to such an addiction, such a player becomes a reliable part of the player-base. This is also true for F2P who are addicted, but they’re not obligated to pay $15/month.

        Just for humour’s sake, I’ll just say that Blizzard is the dealer that gives you crack for $15/month, but F2P dealers give you crack for whatever you are willing to pay (0, less than 15, more than 15, millions!)

        >3.Your bad investment contributes to their job security.
        >Again nope.
        >If thier game was total BS it would be just like Aion,Conan,D&D,Lotro… The Great sub’s don’t die that quickly.
        >Most players that hate sub’s ..In all my days of gaming and more so since following this site.
        >The majority just can’t afford it or now expect Everything to be free.
        >I would pay the 15$ a month on any decent game..Why?
        >The P2W factor is Gone.. That’s the feeling i like knowing when i pay for WoW !
        >I am a Gamer a Gamer4Life…15$ in my life is pocket change…

        I never said that sub-based games are total BS. There are plenty of sub-paying players who are happy about the games they are paying for. I can only assume that you are one of these players and that’s great because you are paying for something you enjoy! There’s nothing wrong with that!

        However, far too often, I hear comments from WoW players that the game has gone downhill and the only reason why they’re playing is that their friends are playing, among other reasons. I bet if I asked “their friends”, they’ll probably say the same. It just seems to me that friends are keeping friends playing. If both groups of “friends” decided suddenly not to play, all of them will leave. As for other reasons why they’re still playing, none of these reasons is because the game is any good. What happened to playing a game because you enjoy it and not for other non-gaming-related reasons? Have most people lost their meaning of fun?

        As for your comment that “The majority just can’t afford it”, I’d have to call shenanigans on that one. I’ll use myself as an example. In my entire life as a gamer, I’ve spent a lot of money on games. I even have a ton of PS2 games that have barely been touched or have never entered my PS2. Adding up all the money I spent on all these games and dividing by the total number of months I’ve “gamed”, I’ve definitely spent way over $15/month. And yet I’ve never spent a single dime on subscriptions. Why? Because it’s a ridiculous idea to me. I’m not saying that I am right. This is just my opinion. However, there are a countless number of other gamers out there who also feel the same way. These gamers can definitely afford it. They spend $60 or more each month on games. They’re also known as console gamers. Despite the fact that MMO Bomb focuses on MMOs (more specifically F2P), the gaming subculture is far greater than just MMOs. Whether it’s MMOs, FPS, RPGs (a.k.a. Skyrim), RTS, console, portable, etc., all these players are gamers. In fact, MMO players are just a tiny portion of the gaming population. The MMO “genre” has a potential to grow to something much bigger, but one thing I can tell you for sure is that the subscription-based model, even considering its many benefits such as better customer support, is not helping in growing it. The F2P model, despite its many flaws, can make MMOs more accessible due to its no risk nature. People can try it and stop playing with no loss other than the amount of time they used to try it.

        I also call shenanigans on the Pay2Win factor that you mentioned. Granted, there are many “F2P” games out there that have P2W in it, but you can’t say that’s true for all F2P games. There have been many discussions on what’s P2W and what’s not in a bunch of F2P Cast episodes to prove this point. However, I’ll agree with you by default that WoW doesn’t have P2W since I’m not familiar with WoW at all.

        Actually, that brings up another concern. I know that in SOE’s multitier model (a.k.a. double dipping), you can decide to pay a sub for regular benefits, and then also buy stuff in the cash shop on top of that. I vaguely remember something about sub-based MMOs adding cash shops also.

        Is there any sub-based MMO that sell P2W items in their cash shop?

        As for your comment about $15 is pocket change for a gamer. I agree also. But my point is that whether it’s $15 or even $1, give it to a developer who will make good games and good contents with it. Stop giving money to developers that keep rehashing the same game over and over again! I’m not just talking about MMOs *cough*Call of Duty*cough*. Coincidentally, both WoW and Call of Duty have ties to Activision… wait, maybe it’s not such a coincidence…

        Inflictious, just letting you know, my reply isn’t all just to agree or disagree with you on your opinion. You have yours. I have mine. Some agree, some don’t, but we’re both gamers. It’s a great discussion for everyone. I’m sure there are others who will completely disagree with both of us (what? no way!). Hopefully this discussion can continue with others joining in.

        Activision, if you are reading this, I have no hatred towards you, but let’s just say that if you can make an awesome game that I like with an acceptable business model, I will gladly give you my money and I’m even willing to give you tons if it’s that amazing. In the mean time, I’m sure WoW and CoD is funding you enough for such an amazing project.

        Hey, maybe it could be the “WoW-killer”!

        • Hey, It is all good, Just that in all reallity , there is only 1 sub game, WoW,well Rift but its future as that is looking dim to now,Since it has been mentioned as a poll topic here already on what is next to go free to play.

          When players or community talk about subs, I guess to me it is the only one that counts as a sub. Yeah as i asked a few shows back about Runescape, Even older with sub’s, But i still consider Runescape a free to play game.

          Personally when it comes to subs for me a company normaly only gets a 2 month payment out of me a year, Just like WoW I only add time during Nov-Dec.But they have done an amazing job keeping content and events almost bi-weekly going though out the year, Very rare in free to play game’s.Even the old sub’s gone free to play struggle in this department
          lol , no you did not say that sub based games are BS … lmao I did 😉
          Take TSW , Buy it , Sub it, Item mall the crap out of it , That is a BS sub.
          Other’s already know they are going to go free to play but hell, sub it for a few months , then release it as they intended all along. That’s what i was getting at with calling them BS sub game’s.

          As for me being one of those Happy players paying a sub , not at all. I am the type of Gamer that must try everything once. SWTOR i bought it , bought time , played maybe a week, I was done.
          Conan , bought it the first day bought time played it 3 days, I was done, In your form of addiction , Guess i am just addicted to trying everything once no matter what price i have to pay just to play it… Do i buy early access, No Way. Full Release yeah , they get some money from me.
          But like i stated in episode 3 i think, Magicman had read 1 of my comments. Even F2P game’s if they do a decent job i will give them 50$ in thier item mall just as a job well done. Even if thier is nothing i need in thier shop.

          I to am a console Gamer, But in pc standards, My collection is to huge,Every week a game comes out almost, sometimes 2, sometimes 3, I buy them all.
          Damn some ….Uhmm Alot i have never even played i just had to own it.

          So i have a question for you…..

          I see you mentioned Skyrim.. Do you like the Elderscroll game’s?

          And when Elderscrolls Online releases next feb-april…. Your not gonna sub for at least 1 -2 months just to experience it?

          Done right, With thier lore, Thier fans….This to me Truely has the only hope of Being the ONE they call the WoW slayer. But to pull this off the thing that Blizz has going is that you can play WoW on the crappiest pc. This is another place that is hurting sub game’s over all, Who want’s to pay for lag!
          TSW you need one decent rig to run it.( Hence them only selling 200k copies)
          Skyrim,Oblivion, these game’s are so graphic heavy no low end pc can even run those at a decent frame rate.

          I know you were just saying your opinion, I really enjoyed reading it.

          My last comment on the sub’s…Yeah i payed for alot .. But with that i gained some memory’s that i just will never forget..Maybe it was just for that reason ..money was invested so i got into it in depth ,story, and the Fantasy World where i once lived for days and week’s , even month’s .

          I have no memorys, of my time spent in D&D on the atari 2600
          or the first Zelda on the Nintendo

          I know at some point it would and will come to an end but around that time i will sit back and think ..Damn i really am going to miss that place that i once thought of as Home


          • I can see your point about WoW being considered by most as the only viable sub. It’s gotten so big that nothing can touch it, kinda like Microsoft’s Windows and Office products.

            As for Runescape, I was playing that way way back. I see a lot of hatred towards it and I can see why, but at the same time, it’s also not as bad as people say, though it gets super grindy at the higher “levels” of certain skills. Runescape is just weird because it definitely has the appearance of a F2P game (looking unpolished) even though there’s massive amounts of content that can only be accessed with a sub. On the other hand, the sub is much lower than other MMOs, but that may be because they really can’t ask for more for this level of quality.

            WoW having contents and events on an almost biweekly basis sounds like a cool idea to me. Too bad I’m not into the traditional fantasy MMORPG genre. Maybe it’s ‘cuz I’ve seen it way too often that it doesn’t have anything new to offer.

            I consider my first true MMORPG experience to be Ragnarok Online when I was trying it out on global beta. Although RO was grindy since it’s from Korea, it was a fun grind leveling up. I know it’s weird seeing the words “fun” and “grind” in the same sentence, but it was truly enjoyable because of the animated skills and the challenge it gave if you truly wanted to level at a good pace. Also, it’s completely open-world. The beta was my way of trying it out since I don’t believe in ever paying sub and it was fun while it lasted. It’s nice that they’re F2P now too, though I don’t have the time and focus to play it anymore. Comparing RO and what I’ve seen of WoW (I tested it out on some private servers), RO was way more fun hands-down.

            In terms of one single “MMO” I’ve spent the most time on consecutively, it’d have to be Guild Wars. Level cap is low at 20, but that’s ok, it wasn’t about leveling anyway. Everyone is supposed to reach 20 because less than 20 means you are still a noob. Most content were “end-game” content. Most were instances, and for that reason, a lot of people don’t consider it an MMO at all. I consider GW a good MMO because MMOs do not need to be like WoW, EQ, Lineage, etc.

            As for BS sub games, thanks for clarifying that for me. I completely agree with you on that. Their methods of making it sub first knowing full well that it’ll go F2P after a while feels cheap because they’re milking early adopter’s money. I’d be so pissed if I was a subber. At the same time, it can add a bad reputation to the MMO industry because players will figure out these cheap tactics and decide to never try a game right away to avoid the possibility of being gouged of their hard-earned cash.

            I think you and I are actually quite similar in terms of our passion for games. The only difference is that you still have quite a bit of energy for it. I’m getting tired, not of gaming itself, but just from seeing too many games that are rehashes of others. The game industry is one that lacks innovation. Every company wants to make a COD killer. Every company wants to make a God of War killer. Every company wants to make a GTA killer. Every company wants to make a third person action game killer. I take a quick look at trailers of games that might seem interesting and end up classifying each game into one of the above categories. Even the games considered the best of their genre (example: Arkham Asylum, Arkham City) are just not interesting enough anymore.

            TSW was actually a cool idea to me because it was so different, so I was super disappointed when I found out about their less-than-stellar combat and the shenanigans they were pulling for launch (all the money-gouging for different editions of the game). It screamed “F2P in a year” to me. This is one game that I’m sure could’ve done a whole lot better if the developers had more power than the business executives of Funcom. But alas, we live in a real world where the decision-makers aren’t always gamers or intend to even play the game they are publishing…

            As for Elder Scrolls, I have one copy each of Oblivion for the PS3 and PC. However, it’s actually in the category of “barely touched” games of my gaming library. When I bought both versions, I fully intended to play them, but alas, other things got my attention (life, other games LOL). I haven’t tried Skyrim at all, but I mentioned it as an example since it has a large following.

            As for the Elder Scrolls MMO having the potential to be a WoW-killer, I can see that. Done right, of course. The biggest thing stopping it from reaching that status is that there is only a limited number of people out there who are willing to pay subs. Sub payers are mostly the ones who started playing MMOs near the beginning of the MMO genre: essentially, veteran MMOers. New MMOers don’t care for subs. F2P exist and to them, that’s how it should be. You and I both know that comparing most P2P games to F2P games is like apples to oranges, but to new/recent MMOers, that doesn’t matter. Biggest problem to Elder Scrolls MMO is that the subbers are already subbing to something (mostly WoW). That means for Elder Scrolls MMO to succeed and gain that WoW-killer status, it has to literally kill WoW by taking WoW’s subbers away from WoW. A challenging endeavour, and that’s an understatement!

            BTW, what did you think of Demons Souls/Dark Souls? I know I’m going to get a lot of flack for what I’m going to say next… I thought they’re BORING! I was watching someone play it. From what I saw, the world looked pretty empty and uninteresting. The movement of the characters even looked amateurish since the didn’t look realistic at all. Yes, I understand that they’re hard games and the satisfaction comes from overcoming something difficult, but why even play it to that point if it’s not fun? Hard doesn’t necessarily mean that it’ll be fun. This is my opinion only since fun is a subjective thing, but I don’t necessarily have to jump on the bandwagon of every hype there is out there.

            I’m the same way about memories of MMOs compared to console games. I remember some amazing stuff that I and other guildies accomplished, but don’t remember much about most experiences on consoles. My biggest draw towards MMOs is that they have a bigger lasting experience. The ultimate game is the game that never ends. Well, there’s no such thing since everything will come to an end as you said, but MMOs are the closest to that description.

            Another question for you or for anyone else reading this comment. How would you describe your “perfect MMO”?

            Mine goes something like this:
            1. persistent open world
            2. classless/leveless
            3. skill-based
            4. virtual world with user-created items/areas/levels (kinda like Second Life, but not as laggy and convoluted, Neverwinter for their foundry)
            5. minimal grind and no compulsion to grind if you don’t want to
            6. minimal dailies that are bonuses rather than requirements (I heard what the F2P Cast said about the current WoW)
            7. no set theme, but could be multi-themed since there’s a lot of stuff due to #4.
            8. lots of the usual features such as crafting, player housing, PVE, PVP, Guild Vs Guild, Faction Vs Faction, Realm Vs Realm, big monster hunting, etc.
            9. good community features, guild features that enable tracking/rewarding of member contributions/achievements, etc.
            10. good content for both solo and group play without forcing a player to do both in order to get everything
            11. F2P so everyone can join in, they can buy what they wish once they’re in

            Essentially, the perfect MMO to me would be a nice virtual place to hang out that gives you lots of options and freedom to do what you want and play the way you want. The perfect MMO would be considered a good “Third Place” (read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place). Most MMOers call it good community, but essentially, the Third Place theory is what describes the conditions that would allow a good community.

            If done right, this kind of MMO would last forever. Second Life isn’t going away any time soon.


          • Honestly gotta admit never played Dark Souls..Looking at some you tube video date’s , Thats arund the time i opened Kingdom of Amalur and started playing that.

            As for Perfect Game !

            1) Would be F2P
            2)High Quality Graphic’s – I mean something almost so realistic that it looks as close to a movie that it can get.Even to see a mmorpg F2P with graphics as close to Crisis 2, Far Cry 2,Just Cause 2,and i’ll through in The Witcher 2 as reffrence’s.
            3)Quests- This would be my start tochange how we know mmorpgs,( This part might be a tad long, but won;t be much to say after) !

            Solo Questing would BE GONE! Instead you give NPC’s Quests ! Let them go kill those ( Selfius) 10 rat’s, Get them to quest that letter to some other NPC , All on timer’s and can only be done once… This stops botters!

            So , Your now thinking whats the point of playing that !

            Well, i would have 1 central location where all races , classes, every player starts and comes back for thier next guild ( No groups in this game, Just Guild’s) Quest.

            FPS & Fantasy combined, Town would have 2 gate’s East & West..

            ( once it gets to lvl 20- PvP enabled, But only to other guilds of your guilds same lvl– stop’s ganking)

            Looking through the east from town , All you see and hear is ,a COD war Zone.I’m (Taking plane’s flying over,bombs dropping,tanks roaming around) as your NPC. ( Imagine this! you rgroup/guild has 2 Light infantry,1 Sniper, 1 heavy artillery,Your Warrior desides to join you,A healer, a mage,)So many possability’s here. on what a group like that can do.The more players you have the more hp/armor what ever your fighting has.Someone trys to ks your guild, That Npc Gets super buffed till either it;s dead or thier dead, But the Ks’rs get no xp or no drops for that.

            West your typical fantasy forest.

            4) Vast worlds, I am sick of maze game’s follow the path to the end.
            Eventually, towards Guild lvl 50, the worlds start combining.

            5) Xp for guild recruitment , Kick a player you lose that guild xp, That player quits , you lose that xp, ( stops over use of the guild recruitment xp)
            Players that are active gain guild xp for thier guild’s (24 hour cycle)
            Unactive 0 xp gained.

            Just a thought, but i do want to see oneday both world’s combined !


  17. ok serious post now you say you don’t agree with john about that swtor is the last AAA mmo that’s sub based maybe he was hinting that the game Sony plan to launch wont be anywhere near triple A


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